Email Deliverability - A Chat with Chris Lang

TAM 044: Chris Lang – Email Deliverability

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In episode 44, we chat with the email deliverability Jedi – Chris Lang. Chris Lang is an email delivery consultant and a fellow email marketer. Chris Lang lives and breathes email deliverability and here is here to bust some common myths and give us his Top 10 list for getting out of the gmail promotions tab.

This is the best way to get out of the ‘promotions' tab #podcast #emailmarketing

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Email is the top communication channel for marketers, but if you don't understand some key concepts your deliverability will suffer. Every marketer should have a basic understanding in email deliverability. Tuned in as Chris Lang breaks it all down for us.

We chat about:

How did Chris Lang become a delivery Jedi
What does email deliverability means to him
Biggest myth in email marketing
Top 10 list for email marketing delivery
Adding links in your email
White listing instructions
Best delivery indicators

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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Chris: That's probably the biggest myth in email marketing today.

Announcer: Welcome to The Active Marketer Podcast. Where we talk about how to design, automate, and scale your business to the next level using sales and marketing automation. You can find out all the tips, tactics, and techniques you need to get more customers and sell more stuff over at theactivemarketer.com. Now here's your host Barry Moore.

Barry: Welcome back listener to The Active Marketer Podcast. I'm your host Barry Moore, this week we have a really interesting topic to discuss, and that's email deliverability. Been hearing a lot of stuff online about the deliverability of this platform vs that platform, lots of rumours, lots of myths floating around. I wanted to get somebody on who could tell us the straight scoop on what goes into email deliverability, number one, and number two, how we can give ourselves the best chance of hitting the primary tab in Gmail. The highly coveted primary tab. So how can we skip those promotion tabs and get straight to the primary tab.

Now this is a little bit of a long interview with Chris Lang, an email deliverability Jedi. So we're gonna skip the normal kind of intro stuff and we're gonna go straight into this interview but we'll be back next week with the shameless social proof segment so if you wanna leave us a review, jump on iTunes and I'll read it out on a future show. In the meantime let's get into this weeks episode.

All right with the new Star Wars movie so close to dropping in the theatres I've thought we should get a Jedi on the show today so we've got Chris, email delivery Jedi. Hi how are you Chris?

Chris: I'm very good Barry, and thanks for having me.

Barry: I am really looking forward to this one. It just seems like, I don't know, maybe in the last month or six weeks or something, it's just been about a massive kinda kerfuffle about delivery, email deliverability. And people complaining about one service provider or the other when probably most of the time it's kinda their own fault. So I thought we might get somebody on who is a delivery expert. And we could talk about, first of all, like what are some of the myths surrounding deliverability. And also how we can take some steps to get the most out of our emails and make sure they're given the best chance to get into the inbox. Does that sound cool?

Chris: Sounds great.

Barry: First of all, how do you get to become a delivery Jedi?

Chris: Well, by pure accident is how you become a email delivery Jedi, and you never really want to do this, it's just one of those things that you have to do. In 2008, I had a little ebook about SEO and social bookmarking called “Wickedly Evil Social Marketing Tactics”, and I built the site up around it and we were huge into social bookmarking and its effects on SEO before anybody else talked about social having an effect on SEO. And you know I built my site up from about eight visits a month to 40,000 a month over the course of a summer. And I was making five grand a week and I seen about 40,000 uniques a month.

Barry: Nice.

Chris: All the sudden everything disappeared. Just like that. No sales, no traffic, nothing. My email list all of a sudden started appearing in all kinds of spam filters for no reason it took me over 30 days of digging through google to find a nice little new piece of anti-virus, repetition of the URL via Trend Micro. Took me 30 days to even figure out who Trend Micro was, and to finally get to the bottom of it and find out that yes they were blocking me.

It took me a little bit to get clear of them they said “Oh sorry, false positive” and that was it. I'm like “Well how about a statement” you know. How about saying “Nope, nope we won't do that, we'll simply unblock you, anything else you should contact your lawyer”. And after that I became pretty obsessed with various ways that your email and your site can be blocked and you know I had no plans to become a expert on this it just, it happened. I was forced into it by the situation. And I've been writing about email delivery for almost seven years now via emaildeliveryjedi.com.

It wasn't fun, it was, but I found the process really interesting Barry. I consider myself to be a email detective. Because it's not about the blocking, it's about something that is occurred deep down somewhere in one of your sites that you don't even know about that has triggered something stupid somewhere, and often these block list do share their block list, and you know the big names are always watching the lesser block list. Not exactly I won't say they're connected to each other, I will say they're all working together. But the anti-spam community is a small one and a very tight one.

Barry: So I guess email deliverability is a very broad topic. So for this call, in this interview, what we're gonna talk about, could maybe we narrow that down? What is, you know what is email deliverability mean to you and maybe what are we talking about here?

Chris: Well I tell you it's a moving target Barry and I think about it night and day everyday. It's all I do and the only thing I do, and it's probably the most focused I've ever been in 17 years online. I don't worry about traffic. I don't worry about anything else. I get all my business through referrals, and I simply kinda stay on top of my mad scientist thinking, as some people call it, around deliverability today. Because you know you hear a lot of complaining about the ESP's that send your email but really, if you, Barry if you were going to the spam folder because of say AWeber, then everybody at AWeber would be going to the spam folder …

Barry: Yeah exactly.

Chris: it's completely untrue that one platform has better deliverability than others. Sure they go though cycles. At times some are better than others. But really 50 percent email delivery is really your own responsibility. The auto-responders, the ESP's, Active Campaign, Infusionsoft, excetera, they will get the email delivered. What actually happens to it today, especially at Gmail, is up to you. IP reputation has very little to do with the algorithmic various inboxes that are at Gmail these days. Especially the Gmail promotions tab.

Barry: And I'm assuming that all those recipient servers and recipient companies they know that like oh these are all the IPs for AWeber, these are all the IPs for Infusions, like they know that, it's not like a surprise where the email's coming from right.

Chris: Oh sure it's all public in, well first of all it's all public in DNS. So I mean we all know that AWeber has over 500 IPs, and they have two complete ranges. And so does everybody else. And these ESP's tell everybody that they're delivering to this email force to that these are their IPs. You know we've all heard of various ways of improving your IP reputation excetera, and there's SPF and DKIM, and all the stuff's out there and everybody's doing it. I mean it's all public out there for the taking if you know what to look for as a person. But it's really set up for the machines to communicate and know who's who.

Barry: And is there a way for you as the person, you as the sender, you as the domain owner, to check your ESP and see what kind of deliverability it's having or if there's any problems or any black flags or anything?

Chris: You know when it comes to, let's talk about the big names, I mean GetResponse, MailChimp, AWeber, Infusionsoft, Active Campaign, excetera. I mean they have entire deliverability departments that take care of that. I mean when you go with any of the big name, you don't really have to worry about em. There's really not much that the average person could do to identify that one's better than the other. But there's a lot of things that they do that we as normal people can change on our end. So worrying about, you know, your batch rate goes up from one percent to three percent, that's a waste of your time. I mean concentrate on the 97 percent that are gettin your emails, and use a platform that fits you. I mean I know you're big on automation, some people are more big on just hardcore delivery like I am. Other people jump auto-responders due to the price. So, I wouldn't even waste my time worrying about any of these big names deliverability, they're all about the same.

Barry: Okay. So, are there any other myths out there that you've heard. Like people saying “Oh you know it's gotta be this, or it's gotta be that”, when it's just blatantly untrue?

Chris: Well I mean there's a few things floating around out there that I really disagree with. And, let's kinda start at the top there, I'm glad that you mentioned it.

Listening to deliverability advice on Facebook and blogs is probably your biggest mistake. And that being this advice that's been forwarding around for about the last year, year and a half, that deleting unengagers is going to raise your deliverability. And that is true. However without knowing your true delivery metrics, without hiring somebody to take a look at your basic delivery and find out rather or not you might be going to the spam folder at AOL or Microsoft, which is all now Microsoft properties excetera. Hotmail, Live, MSN, all go into outlook.com. Yahoo, uh Yahoo at times can be 40% a list. And of course, the Gmail promotions tab, and then the ones nobody ever talks about, cable companies like Comcast, cable companies can be sittin at like 10% of your list, and these people can easily never receive your emails. So if you have a problem and one of these other providers, or any or all of these providers, just one spam folder problem that you don't know about because you know, nobody picks up the phone and tells you, “Uh, you're in our spam folder you need to fix this.” they don't tell you that.

Then deleting these unengager segments could be your biggest mistake ever, when really you probably need to have a delivery of, deliverability audit via some email delivery expert. I'm not the only one out there so I'm not pitching my services but you know you don't have to look far to find people in google that are email delivery experts and hire somebody for a few hundred dollars because you know if you're going to delete 10,000 unengagers, you better be darn well sure that those unengagers are really unengaged and that you don't just have an email, a delivery problem.

And one thing about auto-responders is they don't tell you they give you gross stats for the most part. They don't tell you that, Gmail, Yahoo, excetera, they don't say “Oh, by the way you're not getting any opens at, no you just select that segment and delete it and I mean how much would you pay Barry for 10,000 new subscribers.

Barry: Yeah, for sure. So is there a way, what are the metrics that you look at, and where do you find those?

Chris: I would suggest everybody should have some delivery expert do a deep intense audit on all of their domains and everything that's going on and give em a health report.

Barry: Okay.

Chris: That right there, okay so now I'm all healthy this person that I hired as a delivery expert cannot find anything going wrong now it's time to think about deleting unengagers, and I agree with it at that point. That's probably the biggest myth is … and here's another term that i hate too Barry, is it's become, the term is become scrubbing the list. Scrubbing the list is scrubbing the list with a great piece of software and using a really great service. It's not deleting unengagers. And what's called scrubbing the list is suddenly a term is suddenly been applied to simply deleting unengagers with no more thought of it or look to it than I just described. That's probably the biggest myth in email marketing today.

Barry: Okay, fair enough. So lets say you're now a detective or you've hired a detective and they've given you a clean bill of health or told you what your problems are and now you're starting over again, what are some of the steps you can take as kinda the list owner, the emailer or the marketeer/business owner to give yourself the best chance. You know what things can I do with my email, what things should I [inaudible 00:13:39] email to try and get into that coveted primary inbox tab in Gmail.

Chris: Well the biggest mistake that you can make at the point at which you have a clean bill of health and your list is engaging highly. And that's just not believing that your subscribers are just not into you …

Barry: (laughs) yeah

Chris: … and that being that you are unwilling to change. I had a guy on Facebook tell me that he could give a flying whatever about Gmail's promotion tab and that there was no way he was going to hack up his beautiful emails or change his hard hitting brilliant copy just to satisfy Gmail's promotion tab and be in the primary. That's probably the biggest mistake you can make, is being so in love with your own marketing in your own copy and your pretty emails that you're unwilling to make any kind of changes.

Barry: Yeah, so he's the only one that gets to appreciate how pretty his emails are because they're not making it to anybodies inbox.

Chris: Gmail is very different from any other email client. All other email clients are static filters. They take ques from their own internal spam detection and they take ques from lackless inexternal doc lists. Gmail on the other hand almost entirely takes ques from its own old rhythmic and dynamic process. So you could be in the spam folder one day, you could be in promotions another, you could be in the primary the day after that. When I started noticing that this list that I subscribe to were not simply sitting in the same tab day in and day out, and I noticed that some days they were in different places. Sometimes you might find a email that you would normally expect to read everyday in the spam folder. Next week they're back in the primary. So this is when I really began to think about Gmail as a highly personalised email client and I dug deeper and deeper and I found some of the algorithms behind Gmail and Gmail PhD's and developers who algorithms have said publicly that Gmail is customised on a per person basis.

And that's when I really began to get interested in what the machines were doing about a year ago and I to be sure to this let's not mislead anybody here, if you read your email and Gmail and use it as your email client you cannot depend on anything that happens there as being what would happen in someone else's because you have basically trained Gmail to your responses.

Barry: Yeah so it basically customises itself to you and your habits right.

Chris: Yeah. So if you're using your Gmail as basically your own Gmail or your own google account where you receive and read email at as basically the yard stick for your Gmail delivery you're making a huge mistake there. My Gmail has been set at the defaults I've never read than a few emails a month there since I was a post beta tester in the first release. You know when you had to get an invite from somebody in what was it 2004. I have never read my Gmail, I'm never gonna read my Gmail. I divide my business between my domain and I send all my newsletters to Gmail. You have already altered things through your own customizations, what you open, what you read, excetera. We could go on and on about that forever but we're gonna try not to run to far over your time Barry.

So my Gmail account is just basically as close to the defaults as I could get them. I accept google's Gmail's default and said I'd never change anything I enabled tabs when they first came out in the very early days uh late summer 2013. So my observations there and amongst 10 other seed accounts that I have on Gmail are my own. I'm not using software and not using any robots which certainly google would not like if you're trying to analyse delivery. So it's pretty much on a personal observation basis and I've found roughly about 30 things that can send you to the promotions tab. And there's no rules or rhyme or reason it all depends on what particular algorithm google has weighted today just much like google search. But there's, we'll just see if we can move through my top ten list here …

Barry: Yeah, sure.

Chris: … Count em down like Letterman so, at ten we have you know not believing that they're just not that into you. That's probably the least important and the most important. It depends on your mindset. If you're unwilling to make changes then it's the most important. Only emailing when your promoting something. You have to mix some good content in there. I mean engagement is one of the big keys to Gmail algorithms. So you've gotta mix promotions with great content. I know many people for some reason can get away with doing nothing but hammering their list day in day out with promotions and are in the primary tab. Is that a something we can depend on? No. It's probably more like a anomaly. Just one of those weird things that happen that you can't explain and the guys doing well at it, it is what it is. You'll see some people in your primary tab that should not seem to be there but they are and it's one of those things that I can't decode and you shouldn't worry about either and you certainly shouldn't imitate it.

Barry: Yeah I have noticed like when going through an automation there might be like five six seven ten emails long, and I'm just testing them before putting, turning the automation on and go okay test send this one test send that one test send that one. And even those four emails that I've just sent in the span of you know a couple of minutes they may all end up on a different tab in Gmail even though they're all coming from the same IP address the same sender the same everything and they just popping into different tabs.

Chris: When you, if you learn or read anything about email learning or data analysis basically what you do is you throw out the anomalies and pay attention to the data that lines up. That's how machines learn, and that's kinda how I learn too is I look for anomalies and I look for things I can identify that are stable and one of the most interesting things that's happened at Google in this past year of course is mobilegeddon. Google forcing us to be mobile friendly or not be listed in search on mobile devices, so I kinda thought about this as far as Gmail.

And the next one, number eight, is well I use really small text because hay I have a really big phone. Now if Gmail is based on engagement, opening the email, spending time with the email open and scrolling down the page, meaning you've read it. And of course there's a question of rather or not clicking the link google counts or not so we're not going to go into that. There's two sides of that fence, I'm of course on the yes fence. But now let's say that your email is not mobile friendly. It uses really small text or it uses one of those ancient say Infusionsoft templates with the big product sidebar down the side …

Barry: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Chris: … well nobody, somebody's gonna open that email and go “I can't read that.” and they're gonna close it. And the next time your email comes in on a mobile device, they already know what it's gonna look like, they're not gonna open it. And in that case I would say mobile friendly emails do effect engagement and hence your ability to make it to the primary tab.

What you really wanna think about is, who is reading your email on what device. And that can best be represented by Google analytics. Go to google analytics, go to the audience tab, the mobile tab, and then devices. And you will find, especially in a civilian market, that people don't have a really big phone today, that roughly 40-60 percent of your email is still right on a iPhone 5 and that is an incredibly small device.
Barry: So what kind of pixel size would you recommend there if you're creating your own custom email templates and you wanna make sure you're sending them out in a mobile friendly size font.

Chris: Most people agree on ariel and 16 pixel font. I myself tend to go a little bigger. Especially because I have a couple of those 350 some pixel wide phones like a iPhone and I find that 18-22 pixels works for me because I don't wanna have to pull my glasses out to read my phone.

Barry: Yeah, for sure.

Chris: So another one. This is one that people disagree on but we tested the other day. Using a business name as your form address. The other day we, a lot of people will say “no it doesn't effect it” but I see a lot of business names that get to my promotions tab. And I see a few that make it into primary. And we tested it the other day. We sent a list of 100 and I'd say 238,000. We sent and email at 10 o'clock with the business name went to promotions. Sent the same email to the same list with a personal from name, went to the primary tab. Now that's not to say that this is a rule, this is true, that you can't use a business address. Let's just say we tested it and that's what happened. I would say it would be left up to you to test it.

Barry: Right, so, yeah I would agree. So it's, if it's coming from a person you'd more likely jump the hurdles that if you're coming from some business name. because it's …

Chris: Well it was odd that the business name sent it to the promotions

Barry: Yeah

Chris: 30 minutes later the real person name sent it to primary.

Barry: Cool. Great.

Chris: Really odd, odd metric there. And we'll explain why that could happen as we move down.

Okay so I use lots of images in my email well because Pinterest. That's okay, great guys, email is not Pinterest. Alright you got one picture an email make it an effective one. It's just that simple. Especially if you're having problems with the promotions tab, that would be the first place I would look.

Barry: Yeah. And that includes all the, pardon my language, but all the bullshit twitter and face stuff that people put into their emails. You know all the social media icons, graphics …

Chris: Social media icons are the ones I hate the most.

Barry: Yeah.

Chris: Yeah we touched on number five. Big fat news letter style templates.

Barry: Yeah.

Chris: You know we all want an entire magazine in our email right.

Barry: Yeah because I wanna read a magazine on my phone, right.

Chris: I mean social media examiner is a very, very popular blog and a very popular list. Very large list last I heard it was, last time I talked to somebody there and they said the list was about 300,000 this time a year ago, so we're probably guessing it'd be twice that size now.

Using a big Infusionsoft style template and in the promotions tab a lot. I really don't have time to read 10 things from anybody. And especially when I've already read 10 other things in the primary and now I'm looking in the promotions and there they are. And not to demean social media examiner in the least [inaudible 00:26:09] Guy a lot of my clients are very good friends with him. But it was his email especially that tends to pop in and out of primary and to promotions. There was one of the early ones that gave me a head up.

Barry: Nice.

Chris: Using a sig file. I think we just touched on that a little bit before. Number four using a sig file. You've got them in your email list. Why do you want to send them back to social?

Barry: Yeah exactly.

Chris: So people are always looking for a way out of your marketing. Don't give em one.

Barry: Yeah, that's right. That's right. You're spending all that time around social media trying to drive em back to your site get on the list, why you driving em back out again?

Chris: Exactly. Lots of links in your email you know. The more links the more clicks you're gonna get right?
We're down to basically thinking that the number of links in Gmail can only be two to three is most of the thinking through testing. You know I've talked to a lot of people on Facebook that also work for large auto-responder services. Some of them I'm sure you know Barry. And we all kinda differ on it but let's just kinda touch on what this list is here to because it's not a list of things you can't do. It's not a list of things you have to do. Let's just say the more of these things that you do the more that you're goin to be in the promotions tab. So depending on your marketing. What converts. What makes your email work and make you money. You might wanna leave the other things behind.

Barry: Yeah. Now where do you stand on you know, I know on your list it kinda says one link only or you know I see a lot of marketers use the tactic where they're sending out an offer they have a couple paragraphs of text they have a link to the offer a couple paragraphs of text and then another link to the offer at the bottom, but it's the same URL. Both those links are pointing to the same place. They're just trying to avoid trying to make people scroll back up or scroll back down or whatever to get to em ….

Chris: Yep and if they got a mobile device that's effective, just to interject there, real effective on a mobile

Barry: Would that count as two links or would the Gmail see that as one link because it's the same URL or

Chris: In my testing I've seen people most we kinda invent, my partners years, let's see, about five years ago we're the first to start using the three links, three paragraphs and copy. And I see those kind of emails in my primary today and I checked em and they're all the same link.

Barry: Yep.

Chris: Don't think it is an effect. It's when you start sending people to three or four different places. That kinda tends to tell google well you're kinda shootin at ducks with a shotgun, hoping somebody clicks one of em. I'll give everybody an option and it'll cover the three possible conversions that my list might be lookin to take me up on.

Barry: Spray and pray.

Chris: Yeah, spray and pray, there you go. I knew you had a better anala a better webstation than me.

Barry: That's right. That's right.

Chris: One of the biggest things that irritates me Barry is number two here on my top 10 list. You say on the first contact email, “white list my email”, because everyone knows how to do that huh.

Barry: Right.

Chris: Things have changed a lot. Adding someone to your address book does not always work. Gmail has made it a moving target and moved it to three different places in the last two years. It's now currently under a drop down. It's different on mobile. It's different on desktop. So you know about seven years ago white listing an email became one of the best delivery indicators. Still very true today and I built something called a white list, a email white list generator. And it basically contains white listing instructions, safe sender instructions, or address book instructions for all the major anti-virus software and all the major ESP's and I update that each year. I invented the darn thing all you have to do is google for it, it's free. You don't even have to give me your email address to get it if you don't want. This email white list generator is an absolute must have because if the person does not know how to white list your email they need instructions to do so. And it's something that should come on first contact. That first email you should give them the option to white list that email and instructions if they don't know how.

Outlook.com, AOL, now AOL's web mail version has replaced everything else there. And outlook the standalone client. All three of those, you have to jump through a few hoops to get that person into a safe senders list. It's not as easy as just having them in your address book anymore. So that's number two.

You know give em some instructions. Help the person.

Barry: Yeah.

Chris: If they need help you're making a friend. And it's free. I should probably be a little more stiff about having to opt in and having a real deep follow but I don't. I kinda like it the way it is. I'm a pretty aggressive worker but I get tired of having to give up my email address for everything

Barry: Yeah, for sure. All right I guess that brings us to number one. What's the number one thing on your list?

Chris: Changing your from address will get you more engagement, and change it often. The biggest myth in email delivery today. I've heard a lot of people say “o if you change, you're not getting much engagement, well change your form address” and well yes that's the ESP testing you for engagement so you've changed things. The machines only have so much to go on. And today the form address. And the from name text is still the machines best way in front line of defence against spam.

And this goes back to of course the white list gen, the white listing email as well. But yes if you change your form address and mail your lists tomorrow you will probably get one of the better open rates than you've gotten in awhile. And you probably will continue to see that for a bit. And then slowly you will sink back down to probably anywhere from below to far below where you were before. Having a, I've been emailing from [inaudible 00:33:04] keyworddata.com since 2003. I've been using AWeber as my main list ESP since 1999. I've been using the same form address for 12 years. I am literally in hundreds of thousands of address books. And that is probably my biggest secret to my delivery success is getting white listed and getting in peoples address books. And I seriously think that say Gmail basically says okay he's in this many recipients address books, he sent this many emails, the ratio is very close to each other, that's a really white hat list. Promotion and then we don't see the promotions tab, we see the primary.

And just to kinda wrap up Gmail. You know most deliverability experts that I talk to, and I talk to a number of people that are the man at various large auto-responder services. And we all agree that Gmail is built with built from somewhere around 450-500 specific algorithms.

Barry: Right, right.

Chris: So and Gmail, the head of Gmail about nine months ago said in a big interview, “Do not try to gain the Gmail promotions tab, if you're there, you belong there.” So just to kinda close things up. I'm not suggesting you game anything. I'm suggesting that you look at what business do to belong in the promotions tab and then not do it.

Barry: Yeah, yeah.

Chris: That's my big finish.

Barry: I guess you could almost sum that up in kinda one little phrase is if you're sending emails as if you're sending a friend you know you're using that conversational tone you're not overloading them with html like when I email my friends I don't give them stupid html newsletter templates, I send them a normal looking email with maybe a couple links in it I don't have my social media profile links spattered everywhere and it looks like a normal person to person email so would be your advice be to use that same sort of email for all your kind of business promotion stuff?

Chris: Well I tend to talk to my email list like they're my own college buddy at happy hour and we've got about three beers in us. I'm a working class guy, been a working class guy my whole life.

Barry: And I would suggest when doing any marketing you have at least three beers first.

Chris: There you go.

Barry: There you go.

Chris: It's, if you start working out at three beers though you know there might be three more beers that come in and you might be a little to friendly.

Barry: Yeah you might do a few more typos than you want to do.

Chris: Yeah you might use some ad campaign that maybe a little to uh, let's call it sexy. Little to sexy on your ad campaign. But yeah I totally agree you know talking to people like they're people, most of your list is not gonna, your list is not gonna be made up of Frank Curn, Evan Pagan, Ryan Dice, Russell Bluntson, blah, blah, blah. They're gonna be made up of normal average everyday people that open your email expecting you know I think to hear from a friend.

Barry: Yeah, for sure.

Chris: So you don't have to talk to people like they're a business presentation.

Barry: All right Chris we might wrap it up there. Where can people reach out get more information on you and what you do?

Chris: Well you can, I have two choices. I'll teach ya how to do this yourself if you want to, I think every marketer should have a basic understanding of how email is really delivered today in their toolbox, emaildeliveryjedi.com, priced to sell. Teach you everything you need to know. And if you're gonna hire a email delivery expert it wouldn't be to bad to understand what he's saying either. However if you want it all done for you there's a spot on the bottom of emaildeliveryjedi.com where you can pickup the phone and call me, email me, and I'm always glad to help on whatever level. And lastly emaildeliveryjedi.com/white list that's where you can get that white list generator. It's a single file contains everything and you can simply [inaudible 00:37:41] it do a directory on your site and please do enjoy using it.

Barry: All right I would suggest that everyone get that and put that in your at least your first email out to someone new to your list. All right and all those links will be in the show. Now Chris I wanna thank you very much for coming on and sharing all your Jedi wisdom with us. And look forward to consuming more of your content online. And in my primary tab.

Chris: I hope so, thank you Barry.

Barry: All right thanks Chris, see ya.

Really insightful information there from Chris and some stuff I plan to go ahead and action straight away if you wanna get anything we mentioned in this show today, Chris's Top 10 list, his white list software, they'll all be in the show notes over at theactivemarketer.com/deliverability and I wanna thank you for spending some time with us, we got lots of great shows coming up. We're gonna check back in on our case study. We got some tactical 20s coming up, and some other great interviews as well. So we'll see ya next time. In the meantime get out there and design, automate, an scale your business to the next level with sales and marketing automation. See ya everybody.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the active marketer podcast. You can find the show notes and all the latest marketing automation news over at theactivemarketer.com