TAM 033: Kevin Rogers – Copywriting The Right Way
What are the usual mistakes that we still do in copywriting? Does the long form of sales letter still work today? How these strategies will adapt to the next generation of customers? Find out as Kevin addresses these questions and issues about copywriting…
We chat about:
- How the process starts
- The right approach to your sales letter
- The do's and don'ts of an effective sales letter
- What to do when you run out of new people to tell about your product
- How to get started for those people intimidated by copywriting
- Mistakes that people still do in copywriting
- Migration from sales letter to videos or video sales letter
Links Mentioned In The Show
Barry: So, where do you draw that fine line between pumping all that extra energy into stuff and the big yellow buttons with the red circles around it, the arrows pointing at it and then you've turned into a douchebag? Where do you draw that line?
Kevin: Yeah, well, that's a good question.
Announcer: Welcome to the active marketer podcast, where we talk about how to design, automate and scale your business to the next level, using sales and marketing automation. You can find out all the tips, tactics and techniques you need to get more customers and sell more stuff over at theactivemarketer.com.
Now, here's your host Barry Moore.
Barry: Welcome to the Active Marketer Podcast, where we talk about all things sales funnels and marketing automation. I'm your host Barry Moore.
I've been getting in a lot into copywriting lately and I've been really enjoying a new copywriting podcast by copywriter, Kevin, called “The Truth About Marketing”. So, I thought I'd have Kevin on the show, Kevin's got a really interesting background. He used to be a stand-up comedian and then turned to copywriting a few years back and now run a copywriting community called “Copy Chief”. So, I wanted to learn more about copywriting so who better to talk to you than Kevin, and let's get into this week's episode all about how you can do copywriting the right way.
All right, I'd like to welcome to the show Kevin Rogers, copywriter extraordinaire and the chief in copychief.com.
Kevin: Thanks Barry, it's good to be here.
Barry: Kevin, I'm really excited to have on the show. You've got a new podcast and I've already ripped through all the episodes and you got me looking me forward to the next one, “The Truth About Marketing.” What kind of prompt did you do to start your own podcast?
Kevin: Thank man, yeah. Well, I've always loved the format. I'm sort of addicted to a hot mic, since I started
stand-up comedy when I was 18 years old and was very fortunate to have a steady gig for about a yeah and a half. So, I spent six nights a week talking into a microphone, and it really does become, I think, a bit of an addiction. Sometimes I see famous people, or politicians who, even though they're getting, say like 100K or 200K a speech, you're going “You don't need that money. Why don't you go relax?”, you know? I think they're just really addicted to the sound of their voice magnified in some way.
So, I've always loved it, I'd done some radio shows with a friend of mine. We had a show, we used to buy airtime on a local station. We had a show called “The Inside Joke Show”, and it was sort of ahead of its time, because there's so many comedy channels on satellite radio and stuff now that are much like … we were doing produced and bits, comedy sketches and stuff, and then we were interviewing comics. It was great fun. So I love it all, man. I love … if I could wake up every day and do nothing but focus on podcasting and audio and video, I would love that. That's sort of my dream, it's like “Can I just be a goof?, and enjoy conversation with people, and have that be my gig?”, I think that's the victory.
Barry: Yeah, it's certainly a pretty cool medium and it's a great a way to reach people and obviously you're a natural at it from your background in stand-up comedy. So, obviously you transitioned from people who don't necessarily your story, you transitioned from stand-up comedy to copywriting a while back. How long ago was that?
Kevin: Yeah. I spent about a decade in each profession. So, the actual transition happened right around turn of the century there. I think I officially stopped going on the road as a … I lived on the road as a comic for about seven or eight years. And I made the conscious decision to stop travelling as a comic in around 1998 and I got married in 1999; those things certainly went hand in hand. [inaudible 00:04:18] you have wife and not live on Motel 6s. And it was an awkward transition to be sure, because I was completely unhireable, I think I still am. I still am proudly unhireable now that I've created my own gig, you know? But, it was very awkward to try to get jobs with no resume, I can really empathise with people who just don't want to work a normal gig out in the world and be told when to be somewhere and where to sit and how much money they can earn [inaudible 00:04:55], but what else do I do? I don't want to be broke, I don't want to deal drugs. I don't want to deal with … what do I do?
And, thankfully, we live in a time now where it's … I'm not gonna say it's easy to do, but the barrier to marketing a value skill or discovering how you can earn money for doing something you love is pretty low compared to years past when you would've literally had to hang out a sign somewhere to have people know that you're in business.
Barry: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And so, that transition for you … I've seen you work from stage so I know you've got the comedy chops, but I really wanted to get you on to talk about your copywriting chops and spend some of your time sharing some copywriting skills with the listener. So, I think most of our listeners would have their own business, or are trying to start their own business, as you said, and get it off the ground; and are looking to implement some email marketing, marketing automation, and copywriting into their business and don't necessarily have the skills.
And a lot of things I've … you know, the Internet seems to be one of those places where yes, you can get a legitimate business off the ground pretty easy but, you can't get a whole lot of snake oil sales, many illegitimate type businesses off the ground pretty easy as well. So, you've got tonnes of people pedalling the, you know, “This is the magic button for success online. You just gotta do this one thing and everything's gonna work out fine, and you're gonna make tonnes of cash.”
But, I think, the guys who are really successful seem to be just sticking to the tried-and-true kind of direct response methods from the golden era of postal mail. Would you say that's a fair statement?
Kevin: Yeah, I would say that's a fair statement. I might add one caveat to that, is that. It just comes down to the value of what you're selling and your intentions behind it, right? So, because I've seen both things; I've seen high quality products marketed in a hypey way that's a real a turn-off, and have it misrepresented that way, just because the marketer, for whatever reason felt like that's how you sell stuff. And then, I've also seen stuff that wasn't quite as good, marketed skillfully and it takes longer sometimes for people to figure out that they've been duped in a sense because the marketer seems so trustworthy. So, it really starts with how much do you believe in the value of what you sell.
And so, when I teach copywriting, Barry, the first step … and you know, this is not the sexiest thing to do to lure people into my world of here's how you write copy, cause everybody wants a quick fix, right? But it really does start with the research and understanding yourself, your product and your customer, your best prospect. And, the good news is, for any small business owner, they're the best one to organise the material for a copywriter. And for that, I created a thing that I call the “Question Authority Worksheet”, it's a series of questions that when you indulge in the process of answering them, it really lays out exactly what you need to share with your best prospect so that they can understand what you're offering and get excited about it.
And that seems like the simplest thing in the world but it's very easy to lose touch with that as a business owner, for a couple reasons. One is that we are so close to our product that we forget its nucleus and why with were inspired to create it, and who it's really for. We get caught up in the day-to-day stuff of running a business and we get used to dealing with our existing customer, and we forget how little somebody might know about what we're offering them in order to make it crystal-clear exactly what it is and why they should be excited, right?
And, another problem is that the people … sometimes we run out of new people to tell about it, right? Because, so much of what we do is online, the people in our lives don't want to hear this crap anymore, right? Your spouse does not … she knows all about the, or he knows all about it, so you don't kind of want to bore them with it again. But, you'll notice when you do get it in front of somebody who's a perfect prospect almost accidentally, say at a cocktail party or something, or even a stranger you meet at a coffee house or something. And you get excited all over to tell them about it, and you see them get excited all over about it, and you think “Man, if I could just bottle this moment and turn this into my sales pitch, then I'd be set”. And, that is what you need to do and that is quite possible to do. Because, you know, copywriting is really just a transfer of information and enthusiasm about what you're selling.
So, I recommend to people, if they ever do live pitches, say over Skype or on the phone, record those pitches or those question and answer sessions and have those transcribed. That's the nucleus of your copy right there, cause it's the real genuine stuff.
Barry: Yeah, that's brilliant. That certainly rings true with me. I know my wife does not want to hear about anymore marketing automation nonsense. But it's exactly true, if I meet somebody and they ask me a couple questions, then I get all excited and half an hour later I'm still talking about stuff and you could … the big hook and pull me offstage and stop assaulting people with all the great things I can do. So, it's certainly a process that I need to go; so how does that process start?
Kevin: I guess that it starts with questions. That's why I use the word “indulge” very specifically for that reason, because you need to give yourself permission to take something like the Question Authority Worksheet and say, “Okay. Locking the door, phone's off, I'm unavailable to the world right now, while I go through this”. And then; you want to work yourself up as if you're having one of those great conversations, and you're just answering questions, But they're not just questions about “Okay, what are all the feature of your product”, it's more about what do you love? What's the first thought that hits your brain on most mornings? What makes you angry? If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about life and society, what would it be? These kinds of things that might not make it into the copy directly, because it may not just be necessary or appropriate to what you're selling, but it's really important that you bring [inaudible 00:12:40] back to the surface, because every bit of that, that part of you is a part of your product, and that is what will resonate through the computer screen.
There's a fascinating thing that happens when you start a conversation; like right now, Barry you're in Australia and I'm here in Florida, and you and I are having a conversation; but we're live interacting, right? So, we can feel each other's energy all the way across the world here. But, something happens when it's a one-sided conversation, so, for instance, where I learned this was … I used to do these news … I would do these little rants for a Sunday morning news programme here locally, and I had to get used to looking into a big TV news camera, big cold lens and read a teleprompter. And the guy who was the broadcaster who invited me to do this said to me “Listen, you need to go big, because what feels over the top to you standing here, is going to only come across as sort of normal conversation on the other side. The camera is going to eat up a good 45% of all the energy you shoot into it. Before it spits it out into somebody's living room, right?” So, it's the same sales copy, you've got to go big and go over the top 'cause you can always back it down later in editing. But, if you start out in mid range, it's gonna come out really flat on the other side.
So, you need to indulge in this process of bringing yourself through these questions. What am I passionate about? Why does this matter? Why the hell should the person reading this message or seeing this video stop what they're doing and pay close attention to what I'm saying? What promise do I need to make them, 'cause the first thing they can pay you is their attention, before they every become a customer.
Barry: Yeah, very cool. So, where do you draw that fine line between pumping all that extra energy into stuff, and the big yellow buttons with the red circles around it, the arrows pointing at it, and you've turned into a docuhebag. Where do you draw that line?
Kevin: Yeah, well, that's a good question. And that's a matter of personal taste, I think at that point, right? You hopefully have some kind of radar in place that Makes you go “Ugh, that's pretty distasteful. I hate when I see that. Maybe I shouldn't do it on my site”. Because it can happen incrementally, it's almost like a drug habit or something, it's like “Why am I addicted all of a sudden? I just did it occasionally on the weekends before.” It's like … especially if you're testing and you say “Okay, I heard that orange, order now buttons work better than green ones, so let me try that. Oh, that worked a little … oh now I read somewhere that if you put a red arrow pointing at it … oh, look, it did convert a little.” And next thing you know, like you said, you get blinking lights and crap all over your page and you look like a real, sort of cheeseball. So, you have to … that's why it also helps to have good people around you who will point it out go “Hey, what message are you sending here?”
So, it's not always about conversions at the end of the day, and part of that, what will guide you there is really understanding your best customer. Are they drawn to sort of a big shiny promise of quick riches. Is that the kind of customer you want in your world?
With Copy Chief, I know that I'm underselling it, terribly underselling it. And I look at some of my people I could consider competitors or peers, and these people sell really hard, and every message they put out there's always a number involved. Some big, [inaudible 00:16:45] inspiring dollar figure. And I just think that's my gauge, Barry, if I catch myself saying “I've gotta add some dollar signs into this copy or else people aren't gonna convert.” For me that's when I need to probably do a little head check and say have I lost my way?
And you know what, here's the thing. I'm Not criticising those people because I think there's a valid excuse in the idea that “Look, you're paying me to help you market your stuff and I'm marketing hard to you and you should just be learning from what I'm doing. If you like it and you're buying, then ask yourself what am I doing to make you buy. And if you ask me, I'll probabLy tell you 'cause that's what you're paying me for. Or, if you're turned off by it, ask yourself why and now you've found your line in the sand.” But, I'm just not the kind of guys who's comfortable constantly framing everything around money, I'd like to feel like I could help people also create [inaudible 00:17:49] that fits their lifestyle, as well as earns them good money.
Barry: Yeah, I think you're right, it's gotta come back to being genuine to who you are and what your message is and who you're trying to sell to [inaudible 00:18:00]. Every time I see one of those, you know “I made $10, 782.17 while I was eating a cheese sandwich”, kind of … I just instantly turn off from that.
Kevin: That's what I do too. I just ignore it, when I see the dollar figure, 'cause I just think “Well, no I know the agenda immediately and it's not that interesting to me.”
Barry: One of the things, I think is unique about the way you teach copywriting at Copy Chief is … you know, I love good copywriting, I love seeing it, I love an elegant wordsmith who can really, nicely craft copy; or even just audio, you know? Listening to your podcast; you did I can't remember what episode number it wast, maybe three or something where it a relatively short one, but it was you just eloquently talking about a specific subject and you can tell you put some though into it. But, what I love about the way you teach copywriting is it can be an intimidating thing for someone like myself who's not copywriter but you kind of break it down to almost that fill in the blank kind of thing, you know? That 60 seconds sales hook, that formula that really makes it simple for someone who's maybe a little intimidated by the black art of copywriting to get started.
Kevin: Right. Yeah, I would say that's … I discover almost by accident that I had an ability to help people get fast wins with short copy and actually have fun creating it.
Barry: Yeah, you do man, you make it fun.
Kevin: Yeah, I think it need to be fun. Sort of like what I was talking about before, you need to feel that passion the best pitches you'll ever give in your life are the ones where either there's some laughter in between, or you're really connecting with somebody and you're sharing intimate moments and truth and transparency and some laughter. Nothing feels better I life than those elements of a conversation.
So, if I could have somebody even sitting there quietly alone and put a smile on their face as they fill out these formulas, then that's gonna resonate in the copy and give them the best results. And it really helps that I have this background as a stand-up comic because comedy is a formulaic art form. Now, we used to use that term negatively, and in both industries it can be seen as negative, specially in comedy you say “Oh, god he's so formulaic”. Meaning the joked were predictable. But, again what I sort of realised as I matured was it's not about the formula, it's about what you put into it. Every artist starts with the same canvas, right? It's just how do they colour it. And you think about music … you know, I love the blues based rock, classic rock; and you look at so many great songs that live in the same exact chord structure but sound nothing alike. The way Jimmy Page plays 12 Bar Blues progression compared to how Keith Richard plays it is the difference between how those songs make you feel.
And it's the same for writing your copy. It's intimidating when you don't know where to begin. The scary part is that blinking cursor on that blank Word doc, and you go “Uh, I don't even know where to begin.” So, then the next mistake you make is you start at the top because that's where you start anything, it's at the top, and you know that the headline goes at the top and you really not … your ad's not ready for a headline in the beginning. Most great headlines come from somewhere in the body copy or what we call the bullets often make for the best headlines. So, you just throw that pressure off yourself of coming up with the perfect headline, because it'll most likely emerge once you get deeper into the copy.
So, yeah I really like giving people formulas that, you know … easy tasks that give big wins and just let them prove to themselves “Wow, I can do this. I do have everything I need to sell my product well already inside my head because I'm the person who created this and lives with it every day. Now I just need to take a step back from it, look at it new again and just fill out this formula, almost like a Mad Lib, where all you gotta do to be funny in a Mad Lib is give a noun, give a verb, give an adjective, and suddenly you've made comedy, right? It's the same kind of thing.
Barry: Yeah, cool. And I think you're right, I think formula gets a bad rep. But, I mean if you look at any story, the heroes journey is pretty much in every big story, every movie you've probably ever seen, but there's a big difference between Star Wars and some Silvester Stallone arm-wrestling movie. But it's essentially the same formula, right?
Kevin: That's exactly right. Yeah, totally.
Barry: And if you're just starting out, you kind of need some sort of framework to get started so … I think automation gets a bad rep as well, because everyone thinks it's cold and … but if you use it the right way, if you use it automate your human touch points with your customers and your clients, it's like “Oh, now's the time to reach out to Kevin, 'cause he just looked at this page; or he's just consumed this product. So I'll give a call or send him an email, personally or whatever.” So, it's not the tool, or it's not the formula, or it's the framework, it's gonna be what you put into it exactly right.
Kevin: That's a great point.
Barry: So, it seems like every day there's a new technology, or there's a new [inaudible 00:23:40] coming down the track. And a lot of the time you hear people talking about the differences in generation X, generation Y, the millennials and how do you market to all these people who are so dramatically different. So, how do you see this kind of stull applying in the future where everything is changing so rapidly, are all the techniques and tactics relatively stable the same, or do we need to adapt them for different generations and different devices, and different lifestyles?
Kevin: Yeah, that's a good question, and we absolutely do, and probably now more than ever, in direct response. Now, it's interesting because when we think of classic direct response it's the mail and it's the publications, so it started way back with just ads in magazines or in your periodicals, and then into the mailboxes and now mail is still a huge business. But, those mediums will eventually wane overtime when you just consider that the millennials don't read newspapers, they don't buy magazines quite as much, they get all their information from a screen, and they're used to instant gratification. So, when you consider those elements you just have to know that you have to adjust to the medium. And you know, millennials, people born between 1981 and 1997 are going to make up 50% of the workforce in the next … by the year 2020.
So, that's a huge chunk of the market, a 1.4 trillion dollar industry and it's critical that we start figuring out now how to meet those prospects where they live. Because, again it's … right now you can send out a link to a VSL, you know video sale letter, or sales page, and even your emails and expect to get read. But it's going to be different. If people are … you know, nobody's gonna probably consume an entire video sales letter, a 20, 30 minute sales letter on their phone, and even if they do, it's very likely that they're gonna go through the ordering process of typing in all that information on their phone. So, at minimum we realise it's a multi step process to get the same sale that we can maybe get with just a simple email right now, you know?
Barry: And do you find most of your clients or the people you work with, are they moving away from the sales letter based text copy to more video? Is there kind of a defined split between VSL and the traditional kind of text based sales letters?
Kevin: I wouldn't say there's a defining line just yet. In fact, I had a guys come to me recently who still just didn't understand the video sales letter thing at all, which felt strange, but he spent his entire life in mail and still does and does very well; so he doesn't really need to understand it necessarily. But, it's interesting to meet somebody who's still hesitant about the idea of video. Most people, you still need the text version, so if you're creating a video sales letter for your offer, and you're using a format where that's the only thing on the page, there's no pause buttons; things like that; but I think you pretty much have to have pause buttons now on most stuff, but …
Barry: That's another kind of big yellow button douchebag character, to take away all the player controls.
Kevin: Yeah. That's finally kind of going away.
And, the other thing is on phones, I don't think they've found a way yet to take away the controls, right? So, if you do click on to watch your video in your phone you're gonna see how long it is, you're gonna have controls. So, it makes a lot more sense to make it controller friendly than, again, try yo trap people.
But, I forget what we were saying.
Barry: I just wondering if there's really a migration from text based sales letters to video sales letters, because I've just noticed kind of in the last six, twelve months if I go to a webpage, especially when it's someone who's kind of personality based like yourself; you go to your site, or you go to my site or you go to someone who is basically, they are their business or they have a product that's even remotely complex, if there's not a video there, you're kind of like “Uh”, it's almost an expected thing now.
Kevin: Right, exactly. Yeah, it is an expected … like you said, especially if you are representing your product as yourself. Or even showing video examples, it's just a much more dynamic experience, you know but … you always want to have a text version available. One mistake people make is they rely too much on video, if you watch any video sales letter … and by that, I mean that's the primary user experience, because the reason we love video as copywriters is we get to control the pitch again; if somebody does watch it in real time, and we can do our job to keep them engaged enough to sit through 20 minutes and really feel compelled, then that's a huge win for us because we know with text based sales copy, people are skimming around, it's almost impossible not to. So we have very little control over how they actually consume the information, so it's the equivalent of giving a face-to-face pitch at like a rock concert or something. It'd be really difficult to make that connexion.
But, you always want to have a text version of your VSL script ready and you want to offer people the option to read instead of watching video, because there's a lot of times people they either just don't like video, or they are not in position to watch video; they might be at work, sneak it in on the job, they might have a sleeping spouse in bed next to them, you know, all kinds of scenarios where text is just a better option.
Barry: Yeah. And is the long form sales letter still in vogue? Does it still work? I'm just asking 'cause I don't I've ever bought any … I don't I've ever read an entire long form sales letter and bought a product. So, I mean it must be effective, because everyone uses it, but …
Kevin: Yeah, I'm with … yeah, I'm copywriter and I look at really long sales letters and go “Oh my lord, who could read all this, I just don't have the time, or attention span.” But, you see very modern marketers like Ramit Sedhi doing it and it's working incredibly well for him. He's a guy who's tests a lot of stuff. Derek Halpern, you know, people like these who are very engaged, very video friendly, very modern marketers who still default to the long form sales letter. So, yeah it definitely still works, there's no doubt about it, and a big factor is how engaged is your audience.
I know, for me it's not that I would never buy something if it had a long sales pay; as a consumer I wouldn't discount it because it has a page like that, but I would probably not need to consume all that information in order to buy. And that's sort of the point of those long form sales letters, it's like “Well, tell the whole story to every prospect because you don't know where somebody's gonna be on the spectrum of what they need from you, right? So make sure it's in there, so that's critical. But, I think the thing that we're gonna see going forward is that you're gonna need to sort of chunk that stuff off and deliver it in different places.
I will say that studies show that millennials think long form sales pages are, douchie is actually the term they use. So, I think there is potentially a time coming when people will see a page like that and flat out Not buy just because it's presented that way, right?
So, that's one of the diving lines, I think that's upon us in the next five years that we're just gonna have to … it's more about, for millennials, it's about who are you in their world. Are you being endorsed by other people? Is there quick evidence that people in their peer group also subscribed to you? Are you being transparent with people?
Did you happen to see that latest viral video for the guy in the … shirtless dude with all the tattoos and a long beard in his apron, and he's out barbecuing and he's telling you what it takes to get in shape?
Barry: No, I haven't seen that one.
Kevin: Okay. I can't remember what the guy's name is or anything, but if anybody's seen this video, it's amazing
Barry, look at how viral this thing is. If you look at the comments, it's all just people tagging their friends. “You gotta see this, gotta see this, gotta see this.” And it's got like 1019 shares, can you imagine creating a video? I mean what … wow. And it's just so raw and transparent, and this guy's got such a personality. You know what it is, it's the antithesis of every formal pitch that anybody's ever made to you about what it takes to lose weight when they're … even if they do a good job of it, the way this guys presented it, makes everyone else look like they're just trying to manipulate you or trying way too hard to win you over to their system of their plan. So, that's a great example of what it's gonna look like in the future, and that kind of validation, not only that level of transparency but that level of endorsement from somebody's peers that everybody's seeing this, everybody's recommending it and therefore it must be genuine.
Barry: It's almost like all the noise in the media, right? So, you can … all the tweets, and the Facebook posts and the videos, and yada, yada, yada have become kind of like the 8000 word long form sales latter. There's so many pitches out there so how do you cut through all the noise to find the ones that might be relevant to you, and I think it's almost like crowdsourcing through the 8000 words to find the five bullets that are actually gonna sell you, you know you're saying “Oh, 40 of my friends have liked this video, so you're right. That validates that message and I'll put it out of the noise and spend some time looking at it.”
Kevin: Yeah, good point. Right. It not only validates that it might be worth their attention if they were looking, but just as importantly they don't wanna be left out, and they go “Oh wait, why are all my friends … they all know about this. Why don't I know about this? I'd better spend some time with it.”
Barry: Yeah, very good point. But again, I guess at the end of the day it's all those direct marketing techniques still apply, it's just a matter of how you tweak them to, I guess what you said before, your idea of customer, you know? I mean, everybody seems to be, in the marketing space in the last kind of twelve months, everyone seems to be talking about “You gotta have a continuity programme, you gotta have a membership area.” Like it's some great new thing to … when I remember when I was like 15 and getting those, remember those Columbia House [inaudible 00:35:29]? You'd get like ten for a dollar and then all of a sudden you're on the continuity plan to get a new album every month or every two weeks, or whatever. It's exactly the same, it's just been adapted for a kind of a new technology and a new era of people.
Kevin: Yeah, I don't know if it's exactly the same, but at least in regard to … the thing that's new I think it a community aspect, right? I think that that's the new element, and again it's part of that validation. So, if somebody says, you know, like if Copy Chief were just a free … I guess it doesn't matter if it's paid or not, if somebody's in the club, everyone wants to get in the club with [inaudible 00:36:10]. So if you can create some scarcity and some barrier [inaudible 00:36:15] whether it's simply a closed Facebook group that they have to get permission or get sort of nominated to get it, or they have to actually pay money to get in and come check it out, then that says something about them that they've chosen to be a part of that club. And then it's how do you make them feel once they're inside, are you confirming and validating that they've made a good choice and that they've sort of found this new home? Because, again it's sort of that peer validation that we're all seeking whether we realise it or not, 'cause Facebook is just part of everybody's life. And we're just trained now to gauge what we're supposed to care about by how many people are talking about it.
Barry: That's right. All right Kevin, that was really fantastic. I want to really thank you for coming on and sharing all that great stuff with the listener, so if there are people like me who want to get better at copywriting and become a better wordsmith what's the best way for them to start?
Kevin: Yeah, come right to copychief.com and they can download for free my book called the 60-Second Sales Hook and that'll give them that formula, we didn't go into the details of it but it's a joke formula I took from my days as a stand-up and I just changed the last part of it to make it a really effective sales hook, sort of sales messaging tool. And it's fantastic for your about page on your website or if you have a lead magnet that you want to present people with, it's really the perfect kind of message for that. So, go grab the free book 60-Second Sales Hook. If you want to check out Copy Chief, I keep the price pretty low for you to come roll the dice on a month and you'll get lots of great stuff inside there.
Barry: Yeah, if you could maybe just, for the listeners, expand on what Copy Chief is and what happens inside of that community that would be great.
Kevin: Sure, yeah. So Copy Chief is two things, it's a training centre, so if you just want more stuff like the 60-Second Sales Hook, I mentioned the Question Authority Worksheet is in there, all kinds of simple formulas and templates to make copywriting easier for you. Then we have training with those worksheets. So, that's one aspect of it.
The other aspect is a community where you can post up a new copy you've written based on these worksheets or existing copy what you've been running for years and you just want feedback on it to see how you could bring it back to life or raise your conversations; you can post it up for the community and you'll get top level feedback from other professional copywriters and other business owners.
And I guess the third element is that you could treat it like a market place. If you know you could use a professional copywriter in your life but you're really kind of skieve at the idea of having to go completely blindly into somebody's world and pay them money and have no idea if what they're giving you back is even good not, then Copy Chief solves that by giving you a baseline education about what good copy looks like and giving you direct access to professional copywriters, who you're not gonna having to hire blindly but you're interacting with first before you ever decide that there might be somebody you want to work with.
Barry: Yeah, very cool, very cool. And as we mentioned at the beginning of the show The Truth About Marketing podcast, Kevin's new podcast is out. I would urge everybody to check it out, really great stuff there too.
Kevin: Thank, Barry, I appreciate that.
Barry: Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you sharing your time with us, and we'll see you over at copychief.com
Kevin: Thanks man.
Barry: Thanks brother. See you.
Thank you for joining us on this week's episode. You can find all the show notes over at theactivemarketer.com/kevin and while you're there, I'd urge you to check out our newly updated Ninja Guide to tagging, everything you need to know about how to use tags in your own marketing automation. So head over to theactivemarketer.com, download that free guide and get started straight away. I'll see you next week. In the meantime get out there and design, automate and scale your next business to the next level with sales and marketing automation. See you everyone.
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