ActiveCampaign Lead Flow Barry Moore

TAM 024: Kavit Haria – Lead Flow Explained

In episode 24, I talk with Kavit Haria about how you can set up a four stage system to make sure you are looking after your leads at all points in their journey. Kavit calls it ‘Lead Flow'

If you don't have a formalised system for taking leads throughout the entire journey from stranger to repeat customer you are probably missing out on conversions. So make sure you have a plan in place to address those leads at each stage of the buying cycle.

We identify and chat about the 4 points in the Lead Flow journey:

  • Lead Generation
  • Lead Capture
  • Lead Nurture
  • Lead Conversion

If you would like to have a chat about how you could be using marketing automation to grow your business join us in the Automation Nation private Facebook group.

Links Mentioned In The Show

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Kavit: The other thing is podcasts. Appearing as an expert on a podcast and being interviewed with an aud- In front of an audience get a lot of traffic also.

Barry: Podcasts?

Kavit: And-

Barry: Nah, that'll never work.

Announcer: Welcome to The Active Marketer Podcast. Where we talk about how to design, automate and scale your business to the next level using sales and marketing automation. You can find out all the tips, tactics and techniques you need to get more customers and sell more stuff over at Now, here's your host, Barry Moore.

Barry: Welcome back, listeners, to episode 24 of The Active Marketer Podcast. I'm your host, Barry. This week we've got another really interesting interview with a guest, Kavit Haria, from Insider Internet Success. And we're going to talk about all the stages that your leads go through as they work through your business, and how you can put automations in to capture, nurture, convert those leads into different parts of their life cycle throughout your business.

Really interesting show. Some great takeaway tips. But, as always, before we get to the interview we're going to do a little bit of a shameless social proof segment. First iTunes review from Hong Kong today. We've got a five star review from the Hong Kong iTunes store. This one's from Michael Niccolini from Hong Kong who says, “Five stars. Best marketing podcast I've found in a long time. I'm loving this podcast. I found it and caught up on all the past shows and filling up a notebook in the meantime. Barry really cares about his listeners with a direct, no BS, knowledge and action-packed show. Keep it up and if you can tag me for this iTunes review, that would rock.”

Well thank you very much, Michael. I appreciate it. I still haven't worked out a way to tag somebody once they've looked at iTunes. How to tag them in your marketing automation system. But it's certainly something to think about and I'll certainly give it a shot. iTunes like to lock up that information quite a lot.

I really do appreciate all the listeners out there taking time to leave some feedback for the show. Leave us a real, raw and relevant review on iTunes or Stitcher. If you do that I'll read it out on a future show. But in the meantime, let's get into this week's interview with Kavit.

So I'd like to welcome to the show, Kavit Haria, from Kavit, welcome.

Kavit: Yeah thanks, Barry. Great to be here.

Barry: I was looking at your site before and I love that everyone seems to have different origin stories on how they got (laughs) involved in business. And you started as a musician, is that right?

Kavit: Yeah (laughs).

Barry: So tell me how you went from musician to internet entrepreneur.

Kavit: Well I think it was one of those stories where, basically, I was a musician playing the Tabla. I still play right now, but I went through this phase in my music career where I struggled a lot. Until I realised that the one most important criteria for making it work was to be really good at marketing, I had struggled. So when I learned about this concept of marketing, I took six months to read every single thing I could have in my public library about marketing. And I realised that regardless of who you are, what you do, what craft you're in or industry you're in, you need to learn how to market yourself. You need to learn how to put yourself forward, because no one else is going to do that for you.

Barry: Yeah. Exactly.

Kavit: That's where I really struggled initially. If you look at all- A lot of the people in the creative industry, whether it's music, drawing, art, painting, acting. Whatever it is. There's huge amount of people that are essentially struggling to get their work out there and it's because they're not willing to put themselves forward. If you want to make a living in that kind of business, you have to put yourself out there.

And those are some of the critical lessons that I learned. So while I was doing that, I then built a successful music career. I gigged a lot in a lot of different continents. I played with some great musicians, like Paul McCartney. Like Jimmy Page of the Led Zeppelin fame.

Barry: Very cool.

Kavit: And I had a great- Yeah I had a great time and it was fantastic. But I learned at that time that there was a lot of people that were hungry for this information as to, “How do I get more gigs? How do I sell my music? How do I get more exposure?” And I started providing coaching on those ideas. I built this website. I started creating eBooks. I started providing coaching. This is kind of like the short story, but- I put together these ideas out on the web so people could, essentially, get my thoughts on how they could get more exposure. My strategy for how I got all these gigs. My ideas for how to become and manage your financial independence as a musician. And all these different things.

I put together five books and each one was selling for about $20. Just under $20. And people started to buy it because I started to go to music forums and share that I was doing this, and that's how I basically launched my first internet business. It took about two to four months before I saw my first sale. I don't remember exactly. But until I really saw some decent income it took about 18 months, and that was because I really didn't know what I was doing. I thought that I could just write in a Word document, upload it, put a PayPal button and people would buy.

Barry: Isn't that how it works?

Kavit: And when those people bought, and yeah, they did buy, what did I do with them after that? Well, nothing. So the people that I could've built a better relationship with, that I could, looking back, have converted them into bigger, better customers maybe, formed a better relationship with, none of that actually happened. I was just doing what I'd seen somebody else do. The problem with just watching other people do things and try copying them is that you don't really know the psychology behind it. You don't really know the structure of the business that they're building. When you look at websites these days, 20% of what you see is- Or what you see is actually 20% of the entire business. 80% is all the amazing stuff that happens behind the scenes that makes the business into a million dollar business or a million pound business.

What's the difference between a business that has a great website and another one that has a great website, but one makes a million and one makes a hundred thousand? It's all what happens behind the scenes, and that's what I learned over the years. So I created marketing autoresponders. I created email sequences. I created sales pages, sales videos. And then I started to write this thing every Monday called ‘The Musician's Development Newsletter.'

So this business ran for five years. Within those five years I had created a database of 120,000 musicians. I was writing to them every Monday. Out of those I was getting sales. I started to segment my lists, automate my marketing. I would say that it was in this music business that I learned everything that I learned about marketing automation. Specifically about how to get people to the site, and how to get them converting, and how to get them converting again and repeat buyers. So that was really the start of my transition from musician to internet business, if you like, or internet entrepreneur.

Barry: Yeah it's funny. You talk to the successful entrepreneurs online and, you're right, all paths seem to lead to marketing automation or some sort of clever systems behind the scenes. Unfortunately, some of those websites where you think are the 20%, that's the 100%. That's all they do. They get no sales because there's nothing behind there.

But it seems it's a common story with everyone, that they've got some sort of- They've taken that same sort of journey that- They start out where everyone seems to start out with MailChimp or AWeber or something, and they just gather a bunch of email addresses on a list. And more often than not they don't do anything with it. They're afraid to email the list because somebody might unsubscribe or something. And they're certainly not-

Kavit: Yeah (laughs).

Barry: They're certainly not doing anything clever with it, or segmented their audience, or upselling or trying to send more targeted messages based on customer behaviour. So it seems to be- I don't know if it's just me, because I play in that space, but it seems to be- It really seems to be bubbling to the surface with mainstream business now that they know that this is something they've got to do.

Kavit: Yeah. Yeah. Well what I would say about that is I used to, actually, email first once a week. Then twice a week. Then three times a week. I would do- I would keep increasing that until I got daily and I realised that actually people were unsubscribing a lot more than I wanted. So I was just pushing the limit until I actually realised what my boundary was. Because I found that the more email I sent the more money I made.

Barry: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Absolutely. There are some guys, like Ben Settle for example, who every day, bang, one email-

Kavit: Yeah.

Barry: Goes out. And it's pretty much the same offer (laughs) every day as well. But-

Kavit: Right.

Barry: That works-

Kavit: I think it depends on the industry there. You know, musicians, these are musicians that are low-earning and they want to make a career out of their music, but they don't want to put themselves forward, as I said. And, more importantly, they also have jobs. So the time that they have to read these emails is very limited. That's why I think that it's better to- I was testing it and therefore realised that actually three times a week is more than enough. Whereas somebody like Ben, his audience is always on email (laughs).

Barry: Yeah. For sure.

Kavit: It makes sense for him to do it every day.

Barry: Yeah and I think that the valuable lesson is that there isn't one answer that works for everyone. So you have to know what your limits are, as a marketer. And you have to know what your customer's limits are as to how much they'll put up with, or how much they want to hear from you.

Kavit: Right.

Barry: People go, “How often should I email?” Well, it kind of depends on how often does your list want to hear from you? You know what I mean?

Kavit: Yeah.

Barry: There is no one right answer. But one thing everybody does need is- This is my beautiful segue into what we were talking about before I hit record. One thing everybody does need is leads. So, all the best autoresponders and marketing automation in the world won't help you if you've got no leads coming into the top of that funnel. You've got a system which you call ‘Lead Flow.' Love to hear your thoughts on generating, nurturing and converting leads.

Kavit: Yeah, so, Lead Flow. Lead Flow is essentially the framework of any business funnel, in my opinion. It's basically this entire concept of- It's four stages. Lead generation, lead capture, lead nurturing and lead conversion. And the idea is that you have to build something in each of these four areas in your business and then find a way to connect them up, so that people can go through these processes. If you build four different areas here and they're running on their own independently, but they're not connected, then you have a great business with a great system. But if you connect them up then you have a great business that's automated with this Lead Flow system.

So lead generation, really, is about getting people to your site. You're not going to make any business, as you rightly said, without any people coming to see what it is that you've got. Lead capture is on the basis that everyone that comes in, whether they buy or not, we want to capture their information. Whether they are going to spend money right away or not, we want to make sure that welcome them by getting their information and then building a relationship with them. Because we know that if we build a relationship with them, and what we have is what they want, and they just simply need to get to know, like and trust us, then they're going to buy.

So the third element is lead nurturing. The purpose of lead nurturing is to fulfil that process of building a relationship by giving your prospects the right material, the right information, the right conversations. To get them to know you, so they know exactly who you are as a business. The brand that you are. The person that you are. What you stand for. What you've achieved. Where you come from. All those kind of things. To get them to like you, so if they like your story, if they like what you're sharing. If they- If you build those two, then slowly you start to build trust. And when you build trust is when people buy.

People don't buy if there's no trust. Especially for services. Especially for higher end products. If there's no trust in the brand, or in the business, or in the person they're not really going to buy. Which is why referrals work really well, by the way. The whole purpose of referrals, being a fantastic way of building business, is simply because it's on trust. And when you don't have a referral, and when you don't have trust, and when you start from the beginning and you have all these fresh leads that you- They don't know who you are. You don't know who they are. This relationship process, to get them to know, like and trust you, is really important. Then once you have that trust, then you can go on to the fourth step, which is conversion.

Barry: Yeah, for sure. And not just once. Potentially many times and many different products. So-

Kavit: Right. Exactly.

Barry: So let's talk about that for a little bit. Let's talk about lead gen. What are you seeing working in the lead generation space at the moment?

Kavit: All of what I do is generally online. I don't really do anything offline. The people that I try to work with, to build businesses, are generally all online as well. So from my experience it's really just about that. And, for me, the best is always paid advertising. Simply because you control that. You can leverage that as much as you want and you can get results. By kicking off ads today you can get results tomorrow. I've seen that happen for all kinds of industries, in all different ways. For sure, I think that paid advertising is a way that will really help a lot of different businesses.

But, beyond that, I basically categorise lead generation into four different sections. There's paid advertising. There's social media. There's content marketing and then there's partnership promotions.

Barry: Yes.

Kavit: Content marketing is essentially producing really good content on your blog, on your site, on other sites, on guest sites and showing that social media is straightforward. But the fourth one, partnership promotions, is also responsible for me getting a lot of traffic and what I've seen work for some of my clients as well. Very well. I have a client who, basically, is a career strategy coach. And he publishes his content to his own website, but he also goes out and gets published on other, bigger sites like Brazen Careerist that is targeted to career people, et cetera. He sees a flow of traffic that comes from that. So by getting published on those sites- The other thing is podcasts. Appearing as an expert, as an author, as a writer, as somebody who's a knowledge expert on a podcast and being interviewed with an aud- In front of an audience gets a lot of traffic also.

Barry: Podcasts? Nah, that'll never work (laughs).

Kavit: So those are the two key, out of the four, that work really well for me. Essentially getting traffic to your site.

Barry: Do you go through any process with your clients to figure out where the best place to place those ads or to place that content? Are you looking- Are you building customer avatars of their particular customer and go, “Right, the customer avatar is this and that kind of person is going to hang out in these particular spots?” Is there some methodology you go through there?

Kavit: Well, first of all, who your target audience is is really crucial, and if you don't know that as clear as day then it's really difficult to pinpoint those locations. Sometimes you just know that your audience is “this” and you can go find them on the different websites.

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: But even if you think about a career, for example, there's so many different websites targeting different age groups or different industries. So you have to be clear about who it is that you want to work with more than others. You may say that I work with everybody, but there's a ideal kind of group that you'd love to work with.

Barry: Yeah, for sure.

Kavit: And those are the people that you then have to filter out and find where they hang out.

Barry: So with the capture step, then- If we move on to the capture step. What are you finding works the best in that place? Are you suggesting just a lead magnet to the opt-in? Or have you seen different types of capture strategies work?

Kavit: So the lead magnet to the opt-in, I think, is the most obvious and straightforward thing. Anybody should do that. I think that if you haven't got enough time, and you haven't got anything set up, and you're not technical, maybe, in your understanding, then this is the most basic thing to have. The lead. It could be a free report, like a free audio. A download. A video. Anything like that. A cheat sheet. A tip sheet. Anything that people could just get their hands on and download. Those would be the most basic things. The thing is, if you haven't got it then the numbers are just there staring you in the face. That if for every hundred people that you send to your site, if two to five of them buy or inquire or call you, whatever, what happens to the rest of the ninety-five of them?

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: And your job is to capture as many of them as possible so that you can build a relationship and turn them into sales. Otherwise you're wasting the money you've spent on advertising, or the time you put into the podcast, or the time you put into the other work that you're doing. For sure, I would definitely say that the capture lead magnet thing is most important.

I've seen other things. I've seen a quiz in the weight loss industry, or in the health industry, people ask, “What is your weight. What is your diet? Do you exercise?” When you press submit on the next page it says, “Put in your email address and we'll give you a personalised plan.” That's a smart thing to do as well. I've seen a survey funnel work, as well, similarly. Where you're giving people multiple options or dropdowns and getting them to choose and you can segment them in that way.

But one of the best things that I've seen, beyond the report and the static lead magnet, is the webinar. A webinar, in any business, can really be a fantastic way to cement your authority and cement your credibility. Just by presenting a webinar that's automated, it's running, it's recurring. You're not there presenting every single time. You've recorded it once and it's running on autopilot. You could see that that will generate a lot of that trust a lot more quicker. That know, like and trust because they do- You do that in 60 minutes talking to people, as opposed to an email every few days.

Barry: Yeah, for sure. One other lesson I've seen work with amazing results too is- If- I think people need to put a little bit more time into their lead magnets than they tend to. They try and put a lead magnet out there that's going to appeal to everybody and get as many opt-ins as possible, but what- If you put a lead magnet out there that just appeals to freebie seekers, for example, you're just going to get a list full of freebie seekers who never want to pay you (laughs) for anything.

But if you craft the lead magnet it appeals more, in a more targeted fashion, to that ideal customer that solves the problem that they have or takes the very first step on solving the problem that they have, then I think you end up with a list of leads that is more qualified to buy as well. I think-

Kavit: Yeah. The best- I've created lots and lots of different lead magnets. Not only for myself, but for others. But the best I've found is the case study.

Barry: Yeah, for sure.

Kavit: If you can offer a written case study or a video case study. Two or three case studies, whatever it is, and give that away. Even for the opt-in, the case study, people- First of all, you get a lot of opt-ins because people love case studies. And case studies also help you to sell what it is that you want to sell.

Barry: Yeah, for sure. Another thing I've seen work really, really well is one customer had a- It was quite a big eBook. I think it was like 15,000 words or something, so it wasn't just your 2 or 3 page thing. They put tonnes and tonnes of thought into this book, the lead magnet. And there was lots of quality information in there, but they were just getting no conversions off that at all.

Kavit: Wow.

Barry: And, I think, because a lot of the time those PDF-based downloads- If they're not 2 or 3 pages that someone could easily consume in 10 minutes, they go into the folder to read later and then never to be seen again. So then-

Kavit: Wow.

Barry: We turned that eBook into a four-part mini course and, bang, all of a sudden- Same information, just delivered in a different fashion, had dramatically better results because people engaged with the content more. And instead of just sending them the PDF and forgetting about them, you're just sending them an email every couple of days and say, “Here's part two. Here's part three. Here's part four.” So you're-

Kavit: Right.

Barry: Actually engaging with them more than just- Same information, just delivered in a different medium, had huge results.
Kavit: Wow (laughs).

Barry: Now that we've captured them. We've figured out what the best way to capture our ideal customers. How about nurturing them? What do we do there?

Kavit: Nurturing is where, I would say, all the money is made. Or at least 98% of the money is made. Because it's- Those that are going to buy are going to buy. They're going to be converted anyway. But there are 95% of people that come to your site who are not going to- Are not ready, essentially, to buy. They're the people that you need to communicate with. So in the nurturing, the best way to- For it to happen is for you to have an email series. And in that email series you're communicating very personally to these people. You're automating those emails. But the purpose is that the emails- The first few emails are about getting to know you and getting to know them. So ask the questions about who they are, directing stuff to them and then giving them some value so they can like you. And then, after that, getting them to trust you.

Throughout all of this you're also promoting what it is that you want them to buy. You're giving them the links to go and check out a product page. You're giving them the links to go and check out a software, or service page or an application form. Whatever it is. But the idea is that you provide them the call to action so that those that are ready to make that jump can do that. And for those that don't, the rest of the emails are to build that relationship. I generally have email sequences that last months and months and I simply keep adding on to the back of them to make sure that I'm doing that. Because those email sequences are now automated and are running throughout. The idea is that once I've generated it and captured, the email series is doing all the work. I've had people who have been on my database for three years coming by, after three years, for the first time. If it wasn't for the automation and the email series, they probably wouldn't still know who I am. They would have forgotten or that day would have gone.

Barry: Yeah, for sure. In that particular case, so- Say you've got an email series that goes on for whatever, six months, or twelve months or whatever. Are you combining that with more timely broadcasts? Or are you just- Or is all that content evergreen? You're just letting them flow through that system without touching them at all?

Kavit: I've decided that, especially in my business, that I will have a broadcast day on a Friday and the rest will be evergreen.

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: Otherwise, it's difficult to maintain and manage it. But I used Infusionsoft. Infusionsoft is my favourite tool. I basically have created different lists. I'll get all my tags together and then remove the ones that are, essentially, inside active campaigns. So-

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: If they're inside campaigns that are running and they're through those campaigns, I won't include them in any broadcast whatsoever.

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: I don't want the broadcast message, which could be a different message, a different sales message, completely something else, to intervene with the sales process that I've designed for someone to go through.
Barry: Yeah. So you're just isolating them from the broadcast if they happen to be inside a concentrated sales sequence?

Kavit: Yeah. Exactly.

Barry: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Very cool. And then- Really no rules there, I guess, around nurturing them. Like we said earlier, it could be you do that once a week, couple times a week. Just whatever vibes the most with your customers. And a good point you brought up. Well test it. Try it out. Start with a week. Try twice a week.

Kavit: Yeah.

Barry: Three times a week.

Kavit: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Barry: Look at your stats inside the system, see what the open rates are and where people start to drop off. That kind of stuff.

Kavit: Right.

Barry: How often are you going back to that evergreen sequence and tweaking it or looking at tweaking it?

Kavit: I'd like to do it more, but it's not happening (laughs).

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: I'd definitely like to do a lot more, but it's not happening.

Barry: It's- Sometimes you just want to leave it run and not mess with it. But- So every now and then it's good to go in there and see if- If there's a particular email where everyone drops off or there's some sort of weird drop off where a couple weeks get dramatically less opens than others.
Kavit: Yeah-

Barry: I've seen-

Kavit: Yeah.

Barry: That happen as well. All right. And then on to the convert phase. So, what are we doing there?

Kavit: So the conversion is really all about what exactly- Once the person is ready to buy. The email sequence has got them, in their mind, to a point where they are really ready to move forward. The conversion is really just, “What do I need to do to tip them over?” Could be a sales page with all the information they need. Could be a webinar, where you're actually asking them to buy. It could be an order form. It could be an application form. Whatever that act is that they need to take for you to move ahead in your business, that's what goes there.

So conversion really isn't, in my opinion, isn't really more than just the elements that are required to tip them over from where they are to the other side, which is where they've purchased or taken the action. And really just depends on what you're doing. So if you're selling e-commerce products online, then it's your store. And people going through the store, maybe it's opening an account, filling out the checkout page. If it's an application form, it's an application form. It could be a sales page for downloadable product. Whatever it is. But you're taking people there to act.

As part of that you want to employ so many different smart things. You want to employ the scarcity to make sure that people are actually taking action with genuine scarcity. You want to offer the right offer package or discount, basically at the right place at the right time. So your core offer has to be really strong, and that's what I'm talking about right now. But the conversion is the different elements that make that happen.

Barry: Are you triggering that conversion at specific time periods or based on behaviour? Links they've clicked on? If they've clicked on this link then, boom, we'll send them this sales message? How are you deciding-

Kavit: Yeah. For-

Barry: When it's time to try and convert?

Kavit: It depends on my nurturing. So, for example, in the nurturing sequence if I've decided that I want to send them to a webinar, then I'm going to send them to a webinar. Have them watch it and then only after they've watched it am I going to actually start sending them links to the sales page.

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: Now, it could be that I've got a three-video series. So only after they've watched three videos, on the fourth video am I going to start sending them to the sales element. Because if they don't consume all three videos they're not going to be ready to buy. It really just depends on the type of funnel that I've designed. The type of nurturing that I've designed. But, you don't want to sell too early either. Because if you appear that you're selling too hard, too early, then- And they're not ready. They haven't got through the no-like process, let alone the like-and-trust process, then it could be a little bit tricky. So you have to walk through that process.

Barry: So in addition to those timed conversion points, or conversion actions, are you doing any other things, like lead scoring? Where if they open an email, they get one point. If they download a lead magnet, they get five points. If they look at a sales page, they get three points. And then they bubble up to a certain point score and you reach out to them with some sort of offer or some- Or, directly reach out to them with a call or something?

Kavit: I have to admit that I've set all that up, I just don't (laughs) do anything with it.

Barry: (laughs) I know.

Kavit: I have it set up so I can see the flags going off or the flames in Infusionsoft-

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: And the numbers adding up and everything. But it actually pops up on my screen, I just don't have a good enough system to reach out to them yet.

Barry: Fair enough.

Kavit: I haven't got that far to design anything like that. It's worked so far well without it, but I'm sure that doing something like that would really help.

Barry: Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. You're helping a lot of people do this with their businesses, and starting new businesses and coaching them along over a number of months. What kind of common mistakes have you seen from people?

Kavit: Oh, that's a great question. I think that everybody, if they have a really good idea, can succeed if they have clarity, confidence and certainty. A lot of people get into it with a lot of doubt. So first of all, the psychological point would be to figure out, with as much clarity as possible, what your key strategies are and how you want to create your funnel. If you can do that, then there are still going to be lots of different ideas you can apply to it. But once you've got something down, go for it. Don't have doubt about it. Just do it. Have that clarity- Let that clarity lead to confidence and let that confidence develop some certainty for you. And then that will start to build out a little bit of opportunity for you to grow your business. I've seen that be a failing point for so many people.

But beyond that, there is this idea of rushing to get the sale. Rushing to get the sale is, really, a very harmful tactic, in the short term and in the long term. Because if you build the relationship properly with somebody, they would- They can become customers for life. Literally they could buy everything that you have and whenever you launch more stuff they'll be the first people there to buy it. But if you rush that journey of nurturing, and you jump to the sale, you could cause a little issue there.

The other thing about nurturing is that you have to be really good about writing emails. And so I always tell everyone that if there's one skill that you really want to commit to learning when you build your business, it's how to be a good email copywriting expert. Or a copywriter, as it were. Because if you can write really good emails that are personal, that engage people, that tell a story that are entertain, you will keep people hooked. And if you keep people hooked you'll build that relationship, and you'll develop that trust and you'll turn into sales. So email copywriting is where a lot of people lack. And their emails are so bland and boring that nobody wants to read them. But if you'd spend the time to read a little bit about it and study about it, you'll find that it actually can be responsible for a lot of your sales.

Barry: Do you have any resources there that you point people to, to become a better email copywriter?

Kavit: Andre Chaperon-

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: I love his process on autoresponder madness. His soap opera sequences. And Matt Furey-

Barry: Right.

Kavit: Matt Furey doesn't really write as much anymore, but he is probably one of the oldest email copywriters on the web, specifically. I guess emails on the web, but anyway, hey- His emails are really good. If you go to Google and type in “Matt Furey emails” you'll get all the emails he's written from the past, because he used to document them online. And they're short, but- And I wish mine could be that short, because I always seem to end up writing really long emails. But, in such short emails he managed to get everything across and he did very, very well with email marketing.

Barry: Yeah, for sure. And Andre is a dude. He's a weapon. We had him on the show a while back. I love talking to Andre. All right, so-

Kavit: Fantastic.

Barry: So, someone decides this is what they want to do. What's the best way for them to get started?

Kavit: Essentially, you have to have your idea. Figure out what it is that you want to do. I don't- I always talk to people and they're like, “Well, I don't know if I'm ready because I have a raw idea.” A raw idea is better than no idea.

Barry: Yeah.

Kavit: You don't know if your idea is great until you actually spend some time developing and testing it. So don't get bogged down in that idea. But once you have that, then it's really a case of figuring out what your sales funnel is. Figuring out what is- If- Figuring out this idea for, of, what I call ‘A to B.' A is exactly the current reality where people are facing. B is the ideal reality where they want to go. Your job is to take somebody from A to B. If you can figure out how you can do that? How you can take somebody from A, their current reality, to B, their ideal reality, and figure out how much that's worth to them? Then it's very easy for you to figure out what your sales funnel is, what your pricing, your positioning and all those different things that come as a result of it.

Barry: Yeah, absolutely. And looping back to that raw idea thing, I think- I've seen so many people just worry, and wring their hands and go back and forth about what their idea is going to be. What their product is going to be. And then they never actually take any action (laughs) at all. It's months, and months and months before they put any-

Kavit: Wow.

Barry: Anything good-

Kavit: Yeah.

Barry: Into the marketplace. And I think, like you said, it's better to start with a raw idea and get it out there and get some discussion around it with, you know, friends, colleagues. Even customers, potential customers. Because you don't know, even if you come up with what you think is your perfect ideal product, you may put it out there and nobody wants it. And that might morph into something that you never thought of and- That the customer is more interested in than what you thought they would be interested in.

Kavit: Right. Exactly.

Barry: All right. Kavit, well that was great stuff and just to review that lead flow there. We talked about lead generation. Obviously, you need to get people coming to your website. Once they're there we need to capture them. Once we've captured those details for that person, we need to nurture them. Get them to know, like and trust us. Help them on their journey and then converting them into a sale and help solve their problem, moving them from Point A to Point B. Does that about sum it up?

Kavit: Absolutely.

Barry: Beautiful.

Kavit: Very nicely put.

Barry: I basically just repeated back to you what you told me. So, very nicely put, Kavit. I appreciate that. If people want to find out more about your products and your services and your coaching, where can they find out about that?

Kavit: Yeah, thanks. I offer a service called ‘Automated Business System.' Which in 12 months we, basically, end-to-end take somebody from idea all the way up to $100,000 business in that first year. You can find out- You can basically read case studies of all of that in a downloadable book at Feel free to check that out. You can reach out to me on Twitter or any other social media.

Barry: All right. We certainly will do that, and we'll have all the links to- Everything that we mentioned will be in the shout-outs. I just want to take this opportunity to thank Kavit for coming on and sharing all his wisdom and experience with us. Thanks, Kavit.

Kavit: Oh, thanks for having me, Barry. It was great.

Barry: Thanks. I would like to thank Kavit for stopping by and sharing his Lead Flow system with us. We will have an overview of Lead Flow, all the notes and the outline of what you need to do, over on the show notes, which is over at 24. And, once again, I want to thank you for taking the time out of your day to join us on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. Would love for you to leave us a review in iTunes or Stitcher. When you do, let me know. I'll read it out on a future show. In the meantime, I'll see you back here next week for another episode of The Active Marketer Podcast. Thanks everybody.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to The Active Marketer Podcast. You can find the show notes, and all the latest marketing automation news, over at

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